Cedric Price Interview 3

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• NF Perhaps start with a question which puzzled me a little bit and sparked this interview in some ways - last time you referred to your work as "anticipatory design" and Buckminster Fuller describes his work as "comprehensive anticipatory design science". Are those terms synonymous or are there important differences?
• CP Well I think the most important difference is the 'anticipatory design' - which is my word - and 'anticipatory design science'. The difference between that is that I am assuming that there is a science involved with various aspects of anticipatory design but my assumption is therefore narrowing it down to relation to systems or products that result from such design. So mine is a narrowing of Bucky's. That's the main point. The comprehensive is as good as you make it. You know, we both agree it should be comprehensive, I think that my concept of comprehensive would be limited through lack of comprehensivity in the Bucky phraseology. There was a marvellous - in the Bucky cookbook, which I can tell you about - that little essay on the, putting the pineapple cubes back into the can and eventually thinking of them and back onto where the (inaudible) house works and things - it was very good but - no there's no but - Bucky's was fuller but he was - I mean it was more comprehensive but he was interested in a design science. I was assuming there is a design science and just evidencing it in actual objects or systems.
• NF He said in 'Cosmography' that one should start - "to learn anything one must start with the whole - with Universe" and I'm not sure that I agree with that because I think perhaps one starts with a picture of Universe. How do you see that?
• CP Well I tend to agree with you but that is one of - the point is with some - one or two of Bucky's phrases I mean it doesn't mean too much just starting with the whole universe you have to you have to grasp at some - right.
• NFBut then in the 'Spaceship Earth' book he talks about, in the Synergy chapter, about dividing Universe into first of all into two bits and then those into more bits and its very much focused onto a problem and I get the impression that it's to do with problem solving. Now again in our last interview you said that - you said "I'm not a problem solver" so I've got a - there's a sort of conflict or contradiction there for me which I - 'cause at the moment I'm following two people - I need to come to my own - and I accept the point about architecture being slow.
• CP If you've got - if you've accepted that on board - where I would disagree with Bucky - well I wouldn't disagree with him - I have a different point of view that the whole use of the word 'problem' is too confining - in my mind its too confining to me as a designer. So there's a sort of a subjective element to this answer that because of various pedestrian reasons which I told you last time I do not consider architecture should be involved with problem-solving at all. It takes a great weight off my mind in assessing what it should be involved with - and what it should be involved with is conditions of social betterment, which can include scientific or all sorts of social betterment, that hitherto were thought impossible. Problem-solving - if you can define a problem then nine times out of ten you think there's some solution involved. So I find problem-solving far too limiting a concept. Whereas, whereas if I was to spend m y life dedicated to the playing of chess I'd probably find problem-solving would be the be-all and end-all. And so it does differ and I tend not to agree with Bucky.

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• NF Could we look at this curriculum that he recommended?
• CP Yes.
• NF Where he's got a whole list of ...
• CP Oh yes that was interesting.
• NF That's taken from - how do you see that? I'd like to look at that in particular and also the critical path that he listed in another book.
• CP You'd like to look at what?
• NF Well you see I'm thinking about curriculum and I'm wondering whether to commit myself to further study of some of these. Some of them I've already sort of dabbled in and know a little bit about but some of them.
• CP What do you mean by 'Synergetics'?
• NF 'm only referring to the - to Buckminster Fuller's definition - something to do with the behaviour of whole systems that's not predicted by its parts.
• CP Yes. Well doesn't that - I mean I would have thought 1 and 2 were the same - 'General systems theory', 'Synergetics'. Anyhow I think - I think that - I personally would put logic before all those.
• NF So some sort of holistic logic?
• CP Yes, Yeah.
• NF So where would you - where would you refer to to find out more about that? I can think of Ozbekhan, mentions it in one article but that's all I've got and I've, I've been trying to make my work that the essay's logical and I've been using syllogisms which seems inadequate for - in some cases.
• CP It was very interesting I - there was a thing called 'Black's ... 'Black's Comprehensive Educator' which was given me by my grandfather and it's one of these things that has every subject in the World and it's teach yourself everything and that was during a time when I was pretty young and couldn't get to school 'cause there was no school. We lived on a heath - (inaudible) Heath - I remember that it had logic in and I was just thinking - I think - there was Ozbekhan's reference but I think if you're doing headings then a very simple text book on logic I don't know you know almost a school book. I mean not childish but I would, I can't suggest one - it's the whole - so it's the whole way one would then look at this list, you see. "Theory of games" - are these in any order? This ...

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• NF Those - those are in the order that Buckminster Fuller's put them in in 'Utopia or Oblivion'.
• CP Oh yes.
• NF It's a very small..
• .
• CP No book by Bucky is very small. ( (long pause while reading text)) Yes, well it's - this introductory paragraph is, is a bit of a pointer. He said that he developed this - this - this - this - (inaudible) "to develop", "discipline my faculties to develop technical and scientific capability to invent the physical innovations and their service industry logistics" - that is, 'service industry logistics'. I don't think he means service industry in the way we talk about service industries but, in fact, the logistics of, of almost production industry related to the physical innovations. So he means, actually, the design of objects and their manufacture. Having done that then, then - the - there is a partial view of, you see this is very practical - the "invent physical innovations". He doesn't say "have new thoughts about things that I've never thought about before" or, or "order those thoughts". It's primarily - this ordering is to discipline his faculties to produce "capability to invent physical innovations" - that's a very small subject, if you're actually talking - you see there's, there's no, there's no investigation and subsequent rejection suggested in this. They are all - there's something new in "innovation"- innovatory object - and they're physical. This is where logic is, is lacking and and I would have to go back to saying that - that is a very personal list and doesn't really match my, my list as such. Well you see I think "Communications" which actually means, means communication but it doesn't necessarily mean communication one person to the next. "Communications" can mean understanding a book which was written any time ago so - that that I think is rather more important than "Cybernetics". Did you ever see Gordon Pask?
• NF No. Is he still ...
• CP No - he's died - he died quite recently.
• NF Oh - I didn't know.

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• CP No
• NF Can I say?
• CP Yup.
• NF You see I sort of not dropped out but stopped being employed by others, working in architectural offices ...
• CP Yeah, oh yes.
• NF Well, apart for a short spell - one year - about twenty years ago ...
• CP Um.
• NF And I was - I don't know whether you, you probably won't remember - but I was very interested in the Medikit study.
• CP Yes.
• NF But it was perhaps the implicit, there were things that were implicit in it - not the explicit parts ...
• CP Yes.
• NF ... and I didn't follow the explicit parts and i also saw some similarities with with your work there and so and that seemed a larger field than architecture ...
• CP Oh yes (inaudible).
• NF ... and then it also seems to, I don't know the right word really but - reflect or whatever - this design science seems to be the nearest thing to a large field like that where it's involving so many things - almost everything.
• CP It is. Oh yes. No I agree with it. I just think that those - those lists of fourteen headings ...
• NF Uh uh
• CP •.. I would probably have two thirds or three quarters of those I'd agree with but I'd have them in a different order but um the (pause). No I just don't agree with some of these it's not worth - it would take too much time if I explain but I don't think ...
• NF So I sometimes feel an outsider from the world of architecture.
• CP Yeah, yes, no, no.
• NF And I, in coming in this way, I thought perhaps there is this field 'design science' which is quite strong in the States but probably just focused on the Buckminster Fuller Institute because they obviously have an agenda to push and I wondered what what schools of architecture in this country were doing that's larger than architecture because it seems to me if it's just architecture it's too narrow.

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• CP Yes. No that's why I don't teach at any school.
• NF Yes.C P Oh no this this I mean this particular one - the Utopian or Oblivion - should be required reading in first year at schools of architecture I think. No I'm criticising this at a very high level you know a hard level. It's almost presumptuous to criticize some bits of of of Bucky
• NF So we have overlapping curricula?
• CP Yes, yes that's right. Um. the, sorry.
• NF Well no I was only going to say that really that's the way it should be, that we shouldn't, no I don't know about should be but um - we overlap anyway don't we - people just overlap and it would be wrong that would be very prescriptive wouldn't it if we all adhered to that?
• CP That's right. NE So that's knocked that one down, good.
• CP Yes.
• NF Perhaps try an easy one.
• CP Put this in the right place.
• NF Thank you. Well alright just - you see it's not, I've I made an assumption, well I made an assumption that you you teach design science which is wrong but it was near to, so thinking about - I'm not sure if I'm asking the right questions now. I was going to say who else is involved in this field that we'll call 'anticipatory design'?
• CP Well in the - it's not strictly architectural - but people who can be found in the context of schools of architecture at the moment, but think of things far more than the schools do I would recommend Fred Scott - well worth talking to.
• NF Could you tell me the institution?
• CP Well, he's at Kingston School of Architecture.
• NF Is that in London or Hull?
• CP Well, yes it's in London - it's Kingston-on-Thames.
• NF 'cause I'm really out of touch with all of this.
• CP Well if you - we can find the addresses later, things like that, and David Greene is a very interesting man.

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• NF Is he the chap who used to be in Archigram?
• CP Yes, yes. Those two I would, I would recommend particularly.the - I wouldn't bother with James Mellor who used to ...
• NF He edited ...
• CP Yes, he was sort of Bucky's mentor but he's let it slip, I think - not in a rude way. The - there's sort of there's a young man who's at the RCA. I'd have to - I can't tell you.
• NF Perhaps afterwards.
• CP I'd have to - I can't tell you - he's an anglo- - he's actually very English but he has a Dutch name well I'd have to look that up and all these people you want to recommend if you want to talk with people that you haven't met before it's worth asking them to recommend just one person so it increases the field.
• NF 'cause, I don't think I used the word 'follower' - I don't regard myself as a follower but I'm trying to find my own way.
• CP Yes - that's right.
• NF But I think I need to talk with others, I've got all this stuff but I'm still not through to ...
• CP Well that's why the first two I suggested - they are aware of actually formulating a programme without actually finishing you know without having a particular aim in view but having some urgency about keeping progress of investigation you know so that you don't find that you're just going round in one circle. There's another man but he's yes he's quite good - these people are very they have other disciplines as well so they understand exactly what you're doing, David Greene's partner in all sorts of things - not just architectural, but I mean a man he's worked with for years - he's a man called Andrew Holmes - who and he's in London. The difficulty is at the moment is that we're just starting the holiday season - so whether you'll get them immediately, I don't know. Andrew Holmes is a very interesting man, he's very interesting actually. The programmes he sets in odd schooling that he does you wouldn't recognize it as a conventional architectural programme and he's - yes It think those three and then the Dutchman is if I find his name I find his name - I'm trying to think of some - anyhow, that's enough for the moment.
• NF When I phoned you the first time to quickly follow up the letter ...

• CP Oh yes.
• NF ... and you said something about "you're trying to find a method" and I hadn't thought of that way but I think in many ways that's true I am trying to find a method and Buckminster Fuller suggested this critical path ...
• CP Yes.

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• NF ... which is a method for individual and then going on with others I don't have the individual part yet and it's - he talks about, I need to quote him really, Universal •.. Requirements and in the index it's got an additional word Universal DwellingRequirements and for going over twenty years I've been interested in this - I called it Domestikit, and I brought a big long thing that folded out ...
• CP Oh yes.
• NF ... the idea of a global or a worldwide housing service and I hadn't read the essay - Fuller's essay on 'Designing a new industry' and something to do with a worldwide dwelling service and so all those things sort of tied together for me and seemed very - the way he talks about it and the way I think about it

as being all inclusive - so I don't know what my question is here.

• CP No, no - it doesn't matter - that's enough I think - now there's a person who, there's a person who wrote do you remember - 'cause you used to read Architectural Design ...
• NF I did.
• CP Do you remember there was an issue on systems? And there was one or two special issues one of which was on Karl Popper and

Ozbekhan ...

• NF Oh that was the - yes.
• CP That was the clocks and watches - that's a good one. Well, Roy Landau's around but he does need - he thinks in a rather, a rather tight ordered way so you'd have to have, have to have some questions, I mean there need be no ...
• NF 'cause you're very generous with my 'approach' (laughs) ...
• CP No, no. No, it's fascinating - it's just time - that's the only worry. I'm just thinking that if you could have access to one or two of those special issues, only two, that are very ...
• NF Oh, the magazines - I've got the 'Complexity' one.
• CP You've got the "Complexity' one.
• NF I never did get a copy of the 'Popular Demand' one but I can go to the library.
• CP Yes. If you got those either you could ask him about individual - what the individual essays meant - if you wanted that ...
• NF Are we talking about Roy?
• CP Yes, yup, that's right - he's on the cover of the 'Complexity' one - that's his face.
• NF Mmm - peering through.

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• CP Yes that's it.
• NF Or it's behind.
• CP But that is quite good.
• NF You'll give me contact?
• CP Yes - he prefers to be written to, if you don't mind, because he doesn't like being phoned up.
• NF No.
• CP But you could mention me - mention Ced - then, in fact, you, it will be valuable, that will, because it will introduce you via the articles to other people who he may know or may be able to comment on because also he's very interested in establishing orders - so it's ideal for you. I'd just take those two issues.
• NF OK.
• CP Take the 'Complexity' one and If you can get it take the other one.
• NF I've studied it in the past.
• CP Yes - 'cause as I say Gordon's just died unfortunately.
• NF He was teaching, I noticed he'd done a lecture at the AA last year probably - no, a bit longer ago.
• CP Oh he taught there for a long time. The point about - I don't want to sell Bucky short - but I think the point is that as you've got the key books and you've read them I think that in establishing your own order I vould match it against his - don't be overawed by his, his ...
• NF Match it against whose? I'm sorry.
• CP Against Bucky's. Take something like ...
• NF Match my own order? OK.
• CP Yes, because that's what you're missing at the moment. You're very intelligently drawing on others, but you need some, some - it doesn't matter how coarse - some little checklist - you'vegot answer, to be able to answer the question "What, what ...", you know, have you put those in an order of priority yourself?
• NF Yes, yes.
• CP Have you?
• NF Yes. It starts with the picture of Universe and my lastquestion - 'cause when I sent you the first document this year called *Schema A' ...
• CP Yes.

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• NF cause - that's what I'm interested in - is a picture. I want - the thing that the Medikit did for me was - I opened it one November, November 1971, and I - you know when you get that funny feeling in your back ...
• CP Yes.
• NF...which I've only had a few times in my life, and I got it then. I was doing some other work so I made a note of where it was, finished the other work and then, and then I came back to it and I suppose I had a fix . I don't think it's a fix now and I don't think I'm fixed on Bucky Fuller - I can see that ... it. I need to burst through this ...
• CP Yes.
• NF ..and I've forgotten where I was going with that.
• CP No, no that's alright. Why not, why not - that's alright - (inaudible) that - go back to Medikit - that was Tony Dugdale wasn't it - he's around somewhere - he's in, but - go back to Medikit because it might have attracted you because it suggested an order, not in content but in procedures.
• NF It was to do with this picture ...
• CP Yes.
• NF ... that it, in one double spread
• CP Yes, that's right, it ...
• NF ... symbolised - or my interpretation of it - that it symbolised everything and so I think it's my interpretation of it ...
• CP Yes.
• NF ... rather than it ...
• CP That's it, that's it. So it's worth going back to it and actually explaining your interpretation to yourself in written form or diagram - doesn't matter - so that that you can actually use as an illustration of your ordering even if it has big gaps. I mean that would be an ideal way really to present someone with your embryonic ordering. It's, it's getting that - it's turning it back on you - you're so, you're very intelligent and you're very, you pick, you have great memory and you pick these things up - no I wasn't, wasn't assuming that you were Buckystruck ...
• NF No I know you weren't.
• CP ... or moonstruck at all.
• NF No, no - I know that.

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• CP But it was very useful, and particularly the Utopia or oblivion, I find that, I find it very, very inter... - a very good thing to read but it's now - you've almost read enough ...
• NF I'm absorbing all that, now I'm gonna go through this. Yeah, I know, yeah, I know that.
• CP ... and that's - find time because you can bring these back in,do you see, and answer these questions yourself. NF Well, no I think to some extent I have answered them ...
• CP Yeah.
• NF. because - somebody once said don't ask any questions that you don't know the answer to - I don't agree with that ...
• CP No, no.
• NF . I think in an interview I need to know a little bit.
• CP Oh yes, yeah.
• NF OK. Do you use the Internet?
• CP No - I exercise myself on it. But I don't - I'm lazy actually - I'm wanting it to be far easier to access than it is at the moment. I mean I - it's this thing, this obsessive thing I have about time and waste. I find that there's so much waste.
• NF You could vacuum time away on the Internet.
• CP Oh yes, yes.
• NF We have it at school and ...
• CP Ah yes, well I think I would use it there. I go over to Cyberia - the coffee bar.
• NF Yes there's one in Oxford - I don't know if it's the same name. This thing about ageism and I work with children from 11 to 16.
• CP Yes.
• NF ... and there's very little, in - you know, they call it'Technology', it's been 'Craft, Design and Technology' and - so Design is the thread, but I seem incapable of combining - there's no connection between the things that I'm really interested in and what we do in school ...
• CP Ah.
• NF ... and I think that's not necessarily a personal failing because it's quite a task, I think, to devise the curriculum for children.
• CP It may be in actually not .. I mean you devise the curriculum do you, to a certain extent?

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• NF Well, in the sense that because of the National Curriculum and its failings ...
• CP Yes, yes.
• NF ... we - I'm not a Head of Department, I'm not interested in any of that...
• CP No, no.
• NF ... but we've got - so the National Curriculum to, in many ways has fallen so, so we can bring in some of our own ideas ...
• CP Oh well that's why (inaudible) why yes ...
• NF .. but it's very difficult to match it to - I'm not asking you - it seems a real problem in this country and presumably it happens in every country...
• CP Oh it is. No, but it's the thing that the the actual, the actual, the actual fibre, the tibre of the mechanics of actually teaching is often occa-, often obscured by this ageism - you see you really, I mean you of all people, I would imagine that you actually relate with the children more than most ...
• NF Uh uh-
• CP... now the only other way you, if there's a little bit of slack in the curriculum, to bring in something that that that that really puzzles you and find how to rewrite it so that it interests them - because then you're learning how to get over the ageism thing irrespective of the subject matter which anyhow interests you...
• NF Yes, I started to do that - I brought of some of this in, the ...
• CP Yup.
• NF ... and we looked at geodesic structures and this sort of thing ...
• CP Why not bring some of the Medikit thing in, you know, with with with the big spread - there was a World Map wasn't there as well, I'm trying to remember ...
• NF Why why do you say that - in the AD? In the ...
• CP Yes, I thought there was.
• NF There wasn't a world map.
• CP No?
• NF But I, I've got the Dymaxion Map which I love ...
• CP Yes.

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• NF ... the satellite one.
• CP Oh yes, yes. Well bring ... But they will.
• NF Oh I'm going to. I've just received it and for the first time - I've been teaching for eight years or trying to teach for eight years - for the first time I've, I've got some things that I think, well, if they don't, if they're not listening or ...
• CP No.
• NF ...'cause they can learn while they're daydreaming sometimes ...
• CP Yes.
• NF .. and if they see this map on the wall and see the World differently ...
• CP That's right, just ...
• NF ... that's a more important lesson than anything.
• CP That'd be marvellous - that's very good. But then then you see then you look at it again, while they're looking at it again, and see what else you get from it.
• NF It's um, it's quite a comfortable - if that's the right word - place to sort of test my own thoughts.
• CP Yes, yes, yes.
• NF ... without - you know, I'm aware of my own responsibilities in the sense that they and their parents want them to pass exams and ... (pause) ...phew!
• CP But you see I really do think if you (pause) put some ordering and priority of your own ... in in almost in the order that that gave you the feeling up your spine when you looked at Medikit - it's not the content of Medikit ...
• NF That's right...
• CP ... it was just some sort of ... sort of a pro-, a constructive comprehensiveness of of of that as it, as it struck you. I mean I'm just saying because Dugdale was a student of mine and he would he would probably f-, he would probably be awed by the order you saw in it.
• NF Well up until now I've deliberately not contacted him ...
• CP Yes.
• NF ... but it might be an idea to.
• CP Well just just go a bit more so that you've got your i-
• NF Mmm-

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• CP ... your your evidence and order
• NF Yes, I'll take your advice (inaudible) ... I'll probably leave ...
• CP. and then you con-... mom, mmm.. otherwise...
• NF I'm not in a hurry.
• CP ... otherwise, no, knowing Tony he'll just start trying to remember what he thought about it when he did it to explain it. But you, it's far more, you're using it as a catalyst - just like I use American Comics, still, I'll pick you up - I don't keep them for very long but but the whole way themes develop - not the drawings of them, the themes - they're very interesting they're very good because they break, they're an ageist thing ...
• NF Well I was going to say.
• CP ... yeah ... the readers of them are prepared to think in in in a way that they seem very logical - actually the "Tank Girl' they that's run out now it was only a few issues ...
• NF Tank Girl' (laughs).
• CP ... I got all those - and it was very interesting how, in fact, in one way her mother was still alive and and she was a terrible woman and Tank Girl is not a very nice girl at all but it was very interesting that they could they, could write such a sloppy conventionally sort of, it was almost Barchester Towers' really, theme. It was riveting and it was riveting to the kids who read it ...
• NF Yes.
• CP ... so what I'm saying is that it might be Medikit or or me with Tank Girl, you know, you you it it sparks off something ...
• NF Tank Girl sounds promising.
• CP Yeah but what - er yes - and what I'd do with you ... and there's all sorts of things of not really being sure whether um whether things are good or evil in a very sort of pictorial direct form and and does it really matter, in in a particular situation, you know, and then there's this this this, it's what you said when you came in, it isn't all that important where you finish up but it is important to have some order so that - it, which is why I would have put logic and language before you know, if language was communications ...
• NF Well...
• CP ... I'd have done logic and language first ...
• NF ... we don't need to look at the Critical Path one but you see I was looking at them and it doesn't it's not it's not an order that's coming from inside - well, obviously, it's one outside me - but it's, and I'm thinking well how does that work and do you, how do you see it ...

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• CP hat's right. But, but, but ...
• NF I always think I'm missing something.
• CP (laughs) Well, look, perhaps you are but ...
• NF Oh yes, I'm sure.
• CP No, no perhaps ... no. no but perhaps you're not but the point is that I feel that I'm not being useful enough. There's adifference between comparing my thoughts with Bucky's thoughts for you to then assimilate as a just another set, you know, as a lot of others could do, but If you if you want to make a full um exchange if you did your ordering, which you've partly done, in in a form that can be sent in one sheet and said "I'd like to discuss this", you know, and there's big blanks, it doesn't matter, 'cause you could then say "Well, I don't mind that being a blank - I know something's gonna happen there ...
• NF (inaudible)
• CP ... something's gonna happen there, but I don't know" and I'm busy saying "Well I, that blank I'd put this" - you then have another thing giving ...
• NF So it's a game.
• CP Yes.
• NF Yeah, yeah, I can do that. I'd like - yeah, that sounds - I hadn't thought of that at all.
• CP Well then it's something that you can hand through to Roy Landau, I think - because you don't always have to see them ... and and you're moving on because then then your yours is as particular as any of these things and it's a useful tool. I'd do that next thing, really. You've got you've got enough - you've read enough...
• NF Mmm.
• CP • because you've got a marvellous memory - you've always had. I'd do that.
• NF That sounds alright. It's gonna stop in a moment. (Tape about to run out)
• CP Right.NF (inaudible) OK.CP Right.
• NF Brilliant.